March 26, 2011
GOT THEM 'PREDESTINATION BLUES' -- AGAIN?
Here is an abbreviated letter from my young Christian friend in another town. His question to me is one you may have asked yourself at least once, at some point in your life. I share
Well, Bob, I have paid you back and then some! You say you rambled (you really didn’t), but I have most certainly done that back at you. I have attempted here to offer you some major biblical theological ideas and then flesh them out with some real life, or situational analogies. If you need more, let me know, and I will open up the “theology box” once more!
Since you are pondering God’s call to the pastorate these are very good things to think about at this time of your life. We do not have all the answers; but we have God’s great truth in the Bible, and we’ll always find that to be enough for the living of each precious day.
LBC
GOT THEM 'PREDESTINATION BLUES' -- AGAIN?
Here is an abbreviated letter from my young Christian friend in another town. His question to me is one you may have asked yourself at least once, at some point in your life. I share
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| My friend had this big question about God's sovereignty . . . |
his letter/question, and my answer.
. . . Someone just posed a theological question to me a little over a week ago, and so now I have been trying to come to some kind of answer since that day, but cannot! The question has been constantly pushing at me too to where I can’t simply leave it aside!! It in no way is affecting my faith, but truly just bugging me that I cannot come up with an answer, and I believe it’s something I should eventually have a stance on! I will try and phrase the question understandably, but it’s honestly so hard for me to wrap my mind around that it’s hard to put into words!
. . . Someone just posed a theological question to me a little over a week ago, and so now I have been trying to come to some kind of answer since that day, but cannot! The question has been constantly pushing at me too to where I can’t simply leave it aside!! It in no way is affecting my faith, but truly just bugging me that I cannot come up with an answer, and I believe it’s something I should eventually have a stance on! I will try and phrase the question understandably, but it’s honestly so hard for me to wrap my mind around that it’s hard to put into words!
I of course completely believe that God has given us free will. I also believe that God has complete divine foreknowledge. Now if God knows everything that will happen, is it possible to change His mind through prayer?? I know in scripture there are several instances of changing His mind, In Jonah where he decides not to destroy Nineveh, the issue of King Saul and David, wiping the planet with the flood. Perhaps I need to grasp the concept of a difference between God KNOWING what’s going to happen and His plan for us??
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| DON'T ASK QUESTIONS!! Just &^%$# go deep! |
Because if God knows everything then he knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and knew that Saul would not be a king who sought him….and yet he chose them to go on the throne….that makes it seem that God knows the ideal outcome according to His plan and yet we diverge from it…yet he is for sure all knowing….you can see how I’m having trouble getting my mind around this. And I know I must also realize that God is out of our concept of time! I also understand that God also has an enormous amount of mystery that we will never be able to fathom until Heaven. I would also try and say that we’re just miniscule people God is using as tools to accomplish his greater plan which is unchangeable and set, which I definitely believe.
But I just don’t believe that God only knows the ULTIMATE big picture outcome, but I believe he knows the future of all of our individual lives!
. . . I suppose the issue is simply one of free will and yet God’s foreknowledge and ability to change his mind and how that affects his plan for us . . . . It probably doesn’t help that I’ve been trying to study John Wesley and Arminian theology, while at the same time listening to a Neo-Calivinst preacher Matt Chandler, whom I love, but simply don’t agree with on the predestination argument and found Wesley’s argument completely understandable and much more agreeable with my theology . . . .
Love in Christ to you and your family! (your friend)
But I just don’t believe that God only knows the ULTIMATE big picture outcome, but I believe he knows the future of all of our individual lives!
. . . I suppose the issue is simply one of free will and yet God’s foreknowledge and ability to change his mind and how that affects his plan for us . . . . It probably doesn’t help that I’ve been trying to study John Wesley and Arminian theology, while at the same time listening to a Neo-Calivinst preacher Matt Chandler, whom I love, but simply don’t agree with on the predestination argument and found Wesley’s argument completely understandable and much more agreeable with my theology . . . .
Love in Christ to you and your family! (your friend)
Here is my answer to this young friend. This gets personal now, so better brace yourself!
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| Listen to John Wesley! He gots some of the answers! |
Bob:
How very strange it is Bob that you ask me this question now when, just a week and a half ago, my son John asked nearly the same question of me! It was during a long discussion we had about predestination while sipping tea at a local restaurant about a week and a half ago. The question he was asking was about free will. Does man truly possess free will, and can he exercise it in the face of an all-seeing, all-knowing, all powerful God?
I did not make much head way with him in my insistence that, yes, freedom is real, it is God’s gift to us, and it is ours quite truthfully to exercise everyday and all the time. Unlike you and me, John has come down hard on the side of Calvinism: that we are not free, God knows our fate and future, and has predestined us to live the way we live and do what we do.
Like you, the writings of John Wesley and (before him) James Arminius offer some good balance between the two extremes (that of total freedom which with human sin can become the extreme of meaningless chaos and an ordered history and environment which, though beyond the comprehension of man, is completely within the scope and direction of Almighty God). Interestingly, Wesley toward the end of his life became closer to the Calvinist position on predestination, though he never gave up on the idea of God’s gift of freedom (and grace!) to man. Therefore man was and has always been free to choose God’s will and find His favor, or reject it and enter sin with its consequences (ultimately death).
I did not make much head way with him in my insistence that, yes, freedom is real, it is God’s gift to us, and it is ours quite truthfully to exercise everyday and all the time. Unlike you and me, John has come down hard on the side of Calvinism: that we are not free, God knows our fate and future, and has predestined us to live the way we live and do what we do.
Like you, the writings of John Wesley and (before him) James Arminius offer some good balance between the two extremes (that of total freedom which with human sin can become the extreme of meaningless chaos and an ordered history and environment which, though beyond the comprehension of man, is completely within the scope and direction of Almighty God). Interestingly, Wesley toward the end of his life became closer to the Calvinist position on predestination, though he never gave up on the idea of God’s gift of freedom (and grace!) to man. Therefore man was and has always been free to choose God’s will and find His favor, or reject it and enter sin with its consequences (ultimately death).
You mentioned the Bible story from Genesis 2 and 3 (and you need chapter 2 to understand the rest of it). In that story God, out of His great love, gave the man he created a beautiful home, and with it a responsibility (keeping, tilling the garden) and a command: eat
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| That's right, Bub! I am a Wesleyan-Arminian. Deal with it! |
of any tree of the garden except the one of knowledge of good and evil. Thus God is making His eternal will known in that instance: “Here is my plan for you (He says). Do this, remain in complete fellowship with me, and be fulfilled.”
But it is a command that only has any value if the man is truly free (and the woman of course). Think about this: God made us in His image (and He is completely free; we are
free in a smaller measure). Thus when God gives us a command, it means a great deal, because we are free to obey it or not. It is precious to God that His humans, who could very well choose to disobey, will (at least on occasion) obey Him. That is what makes His commands so powerful: we have the potential freely to disobey, because God has given us this. So it means a great deal to the Father, that we exercise His gift by choosing to obey the command.
Adam could have chosen to obey and reject the gift of forbidden fruit from his beguiled wife. His obedience might even have redeemed her poor reasoning and poor choice. Abraham could have refused to head southwest to the land of Canaan. David could have gone back to his home in Bethlehem after he had delivered the food to his soldier-brothers; instead he chose to stay behind, hear of the challenge of Goliath, and take it up. He did so, never knowing that God had plans for him to become King after Saul.
The pure Calvinist would argue that Adam had no choice but to heed his wife and sin, she had no choice but to be tricked, that God knew that Abram would not disobey the call to head for Canaan, that Moses would be turned aside by the burning bush, and that David
But it is a command that only has any value if the man is truly free (and the woman of course). Think about this: God made us in His image (and He is completely free; we are
free in a smaller measure). Thus when God gives us a command, it means a great deal, because we are free to obey it or not. It is precious to God that His humans, who could very well choose to disobey, will (at least on occasion) obey Him. That is what makes His commands so powerful: we have the potential freely to disobey, because God has given us this. So it means a great deal to the Father, that we exercise His gift by choosing to obey the command.
Adam could have chosen to obey and reject the gift of forbidden fruit from his beguiled wife. His obedience might even have redeemed her poor reasoning and poor choice. Abraham could have refused to head southwest to the land of Canaan. David could have gone back to his home in Bethlehem after he had delivered the food to his soldier-brothers; instead he chose to stay behind, hear of the challenge of Goliath, and take it up. He did so, never knowing that God had plans for him to become King after Saul.
The pure Calvinist would argue that Adam had no choice but to heed his wife and sin, she had no choice but to be tricked, that God knew that Abram would not disobey the call to head for Canaan, that Moses would be turned aside by the burning bush, and that David
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| When you're naked . . . it's easy to make some pretty big mistakes!! |
would choose to fight the Philistine. But that is an argument from silence! All such stories in the Bible, all the way into the New Testament, presume that the humans involved really do have free choice, and they exercise it, some one way, and some another.
But does this negate the idea that God has a specific plan for your life and mine? Does it negate God’s big picture of the history of the world? It doesn’t!
But does this negate the idea that God has a specific plan for your life and mine? Does it negate God’s big picture of the history of the world? It doesn’t!
For one thing, man, exercising his freedom, will not change the large design of God’s plan to redeem humans, place them in fellowship with Himself, and then restore the world through the life and work of His Son. This much we get from the Bible. It is an unchanging and unchangeable destiny He has planned for the world and man, all bound up in that last great phrase, “a new heaven and a new earth”!
But on the way to that final fulfillment, man is free and can choose many trails, paths, and side trails on the way to that great and foreordained End. That includes the likes of you and me.
The world and history itself are like a great forest filled with many different creatures. The forest is fixed and unchanging. There are also a number of trails through the forest. This number is predetermined and mathematically fixed, based on the number of trees, the distance between the trees, etc. Our lives are like the lives of all the various creatures that have been placed in the forest to live. Some creatures are insects, and they choose some trails to travel on; others are deer, and they blaze and use their own trails. Man lives in the
But on the way to that final fulfillment, man is free and can choose many trails, paths, and side trails on the way to that great and foreordained End. That includes the likes of you and me.
The world and history itself are like a great forest filled with many different creatures. The forest is fixed and unchanging. There are also a number of trails through the forest. This number is predetermined and mathematically fixed, based on the number of trees, the distance between the trees, etc. Our lives are like the lives of all the various creatures that have been placed in the forest to live. Some creatures are insects, and they choose some trails to travel on; others are deer, and they blaze and use their own trails. Man lives in the
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| There was just no way the "Pack" was going to lose to those guys . . . . |
forest too and he uses some of the trails the deer use, but also blazes his own. And some creatures come along and choose yet other trails at need, upon demand, but there are only so many different trails each can use, given the span of a creature’s life, and given the finite number of trails that are available to each creature.
Does God know which trail you or I will take, given how He has made us? He does! Does His foreknowledge alter our choices. It doesn’t! We can still choose, both various degrees of His will, or even sin, and then enjoy the blessings (or, respectively) the consequences of each choice.
Does God know which trail you or I will take, given how He has made us? He does! Does His foreknowledge alter our choices. It doesn’t! We can still choose, both various degrees of His will, or even sin, and then enjoy the blessings (or, respectively) the consequences of each choice.
Another analogy: in 1967 the first Super Bowl was played. No intelligent person picked the Kansas City Chiefs (then champions of the old American Football Conference) to prevail over the tough, crusty, experienced Green Bay Packers, led by veteran All Pro quarterback Bart Starr. And sure enough the Packers prevailed, big time! They won the game 35 to 10 (though it was admittedly close at half time). You could say the outcome of the game was pretty well set in stone (that’s the big picture). But the various trails for getting to that final score could have been anybody’s guess: it depended on the play calling of both teams, AND the individual choices of the players who executed each play! Do you see there a example (though probably a poor one) of both pre-determinism, foresight, and also human freedom?
So, likewise, at one point I contemplated becoming a Naval Chaplain. That would have been within God’s will in His call to full time Christian service. But when I found out the number of extra years that would be required to get my denomination’s endorsement, I was
So, likewise, at one point I contemplated becoming a Naval Chaplain. That would have been within God’s will in His call to full time Christian service. But when I found out the number of extra years that would be required to get my denomination’s endorsement, I was
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| I was thinking and praying about a missionary's career . . . . |
discouraged by that, and chose not to pursue it. Also my meeting my future wife in seminary had a lot to do with my choice not to become a chaplain (six months at sea away from her?! Man, are you kidding me?!)
So I chose to be a pastor (my original call). But then when I entered graduate school some international friends apprised me of the great need for Christian teachers in overseas mission areas. I was deeply moved by this and believed (and in some ways still believe) this was God’s call for me. Yet, I shrunk from this, I think, primarily from fear, and distrust of God. It was the fear of living in strange places, wanting to have children and not being sure they would grow up safely in a place like Ghana, West Africa, for instance, or Kenya, or Zimbabwe (where the Africa University is). I had gone to graduate school also because I felt God was calling me to be a teacher of the Bible. So, after graduate school, I tried and tried hard to get a job teaching Bible or theology in a college or seminary. I came close to getting hired, but not really close enough!
So in 1988 after four years of graduate school, I asked to come back to my old conference and serve as a pastor. I had the feeling of being defeated: not being able to get a job doing the primary thing God wanted me to do, but also not having the courage to do it overseas in a place of great Christian need. Back in the pastorate I rediscovered God’s call to be a pastor (that was in Iraan, West Texas), and thought that I would simply be a Bible
So in 1988 after four years of graduate school, I asked to come back to my old conference and serve as a pastor. I had the feeling of being defeated: not being able to get a job doing the primary thing God wanted me to do, but also not having the courage to do it overseas in a place of great Christian need. Back in the pastorate I rediscovered God’s call to be a pastor (that was in Iraan, West Texas), and thought that I would simply be a Bible
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| No doubt about it: God has plans for you! |
teacher as the pastor of a church. But God also had other plans: through our Bishop at the time, He called me to serve as a campus minister and Bible teacher at Eastern New Mexico U. There I found out I did have a love for teaching and some ability at it but little or no ability as a campus minister relating to people your age.
So you see, there were some choices all along the way. The big ones were God’s, and hopefully I obeyed at least some of the time. The little choices were mine, and hopefully some of the time I chose correctly.
Ditto for my friend Bob! I can picture God thinking to Himself a long time ago, “Hmmmm. I’m going to give this one a love of people, a great sense of humor, brains, creativity, musical ability, along with a dramatic flair. Let’s see what He does with all these pre-determined qualities and gifts.” Later on I can see God saying to Himself, “Hmmmm. I want Bob to further his education beyond high school. I’d like to see him go to this school; but he may not! So if he goes to this school, then I will have these opportunities for him, but if he chooses this college, I will make sure he has these opportunities . . . .”
Well, I gave you several examples, but of course also read the New Testament as well as the Old. Jesus Himself treats the humans around Him as if they genuinely have free choice, even though (here’s your paradox!) He knows He is going to suffer by men and die on a cross – and then of course also be raised (see His own predictions in Mark 8, 9, and 10!). He knows what Peter is going to do before he does it (deny three times), yet He has already seen beyond that to what He has in store for the rest of Peter’s life! Paul even says Peter is free to take his wife with him in his travels, though Paul has chosen to be even freer by not marrying (read 1 and 2 Corinthians). Paul doesn’t even know the details of all God has in store for him; though he senses that he is to suffer at the hands of the Jews and
Ditto for my friend Bob! I can picture God thinking to Himself a long time ago, “Hmmmm. I’m going to give this one a love of people, a great sense of humor, brains, creativity, musical ability, along with a dramatic flair. Let’s see what He does with all these pre-determined qualities and gifts.” Later on I can see God saying to Himself, “Hmmmm. I want Bob to further his education beyond high school. I’d like to see him go to this school; but he may not! So if he goes to this school, then I will have these opportunities for him, but if he chooses this college, I will make sure he has these opportunities . . . .”
Well, I gave you several examples, but of course also read the New Testament as well as the Old. Jesus Himself treats the humans around Him as if they genuinely have free choice, even though (here’s your paradox!) He knows He is going to suffer by men and die on a cross – and then of course also be raised (see His own predictions in Mark 8, 9, and 10!). He knows what Peter is going to do before he does it (deny three times), yet He has already seen beyond that to what He has in store for the rest of Peter’s life! Paul even says Peter is free to take his wife with him in his travels, though Paul has chosen to be even freer by not marrying (read 1 and 2 Corinthians). Paul doesn’t even know the details of all God has in store for him; though he senses that he is to suffer at the hands of the Jews and
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| Peter felt somethin' awful! . . . but then so would you . . . . |
somehow end up in Rome.
You could say (getting back to Peter’s example above and Jesus’ prediction of his behavior before the cross) that once we have decided for Jesus Christ, a good deal of our fate is fixed by God: eternal life, heaven, fellowship with Him, and a life of loving Christian service! But there are many, many trails through that new particular forest!
I know I am nothing like those original apostles, but I sort-‘a, kind-’a felt I was called to move to this town when I did! As silly as it sounds, I believe God has called me to be – at least for this time in my life – a faithful lay minister at St. Paul’s Methodist Church (ministering particularly in the areas of prayer and encouragement)! He has given me a tremendous love for the people there, its ministry, its history – and all in the space of just a few months.You could say (getting back to Peter’s example above and Jesus’ prediction of his behavior before the cross) that once we have decided for Jesus Christ, a good deal of our fate is fixed by God: eternal life, heaven, fellowship with Him, and a life of loving Christian service! But there are many, many trails through that new particular forest!
Well, Bob, I have paid you back and then some! You say you rambled (you really didn’t), but I have most certainly done that back at you. I have attempted here to offer you some major biblical theological ideas and then flesh them out with some real life, or situational analogies. If you need more, let me know, and I will open up the “theology box” once more!
Since you are pondering God’s call to the pastorate these are very good things to think about at this time of your life. We do not have all the answers; but we have God’s great truth in the Bible, and we’ll always find that to be enough for the living of each precious day.
LBC
